The actor and producer compares his own journey on the show to Toranaga’s, where and when he decided to show more emotion, and more.

Now that FX’s epic series Shōgun has concluded with its final chapter this week, it’s difficult to overstate what a phenomenal story it told — one punctuated by heartbreak, loss, and grief, as well as important lessons surrounding life and death. All of this is told against the backdrop of feudal Japan in which rival factions war for control over everything, and the last several weeks have all been building up to the moment in which we might see Lord Yoshii Toranaga (Hiroyuki Sanada) finally claim victory over his enemies in a kill-or-be-killed landscape. However, as “Chapter Ten: A Dream of a Dream,” reveals, the point of the series was never to get to any bloody battlefield conclusion, but for Toranaga to earn the necessary allegiance that would allow him to best his foes without drawing a single sword.

Although Shōgun boasts a wide variety of actors, ranging from Cosmo Jarvis as pilot-turned-hatamoto John Blackthorne, who stumbles into a strange new world, to Anna Sawai as doomed translator Lady Toda Mariko, to renowned Japanese names like Tadanobu Asano as the scheming wildcard Lord Kashigi Yabushige, no presence in the series is precisely akin to that of Hiroyuki Sanada himself. A legendary actor on big and small screens alike who has stolen scenes in titles like The Last Samurai, 47 Ronin, Westworld, and John Wick: Chapter 4, Sanada was also a producer on Shōgun, where he lent his wealth of expertise to make the FX series the best version of itself.

Ahead of the series finale, Collider had the opportunity to speak with Sanada about his time working on Shōgun both in front of and behind the camera. Over the course of the interview, which you can read below, the actor discusses why he found it important to showcase more of his character’s emotions for the sake of the audience, why Toranaga tests Blackthorne by destroying his ship, the parallels between Toranaga’s desire to become shōgun and his own producing role, his input on the final shot of the show, and more.

 In terms of Toranaga’s plan for all of this and how this plays out over the course of the show, why did he decide that this stage of it had to fall on Mariko’s shoulders, as we see in Episode 9, “Crimson Sky”? Is he anticipating that she might die, or is he hoping that maybe she’ll just be the thing that can turn the tide in his favor?

HIROYUKI SANADA: Hopefully, she will change Ochiba’s mind without her death, but in case it’s needed, [he] expects it. But it’s a small hope without death. That was in his mind, I think.

Hiroyuki Sanada Hinted at Toranaga’s True Emotions for the Audience on ‘Shōgun’

SANADA: At that point, there were so many sacrifices with loyalty, so he doesn’t want that. But if it’s necessary, you have to accept that. Inside his mind, it is sad, of course, as a human being. But as a leader of samurai, as a planner to make a better future, he has to hide his true mind.

We see that, too, when he has that conversation with Mariko after Hiromatsu commits seppuku, and the grief that is there. We’ve learned about the eightfold fence and how all of these emotions have to stay buried behind it, but in that moment, it feels like he lets the sadness come out just a little. Is that cathartic for you, as well?

SANADA: Yeah, it’s so hard to hide. But some moments, just for the audience, I’d show his insides, a little hint of something. That balance was the most important and difficult part. “How much can I show to the audience, or not?”

Toranaga’s conversation on the mountain with Blackthorne is a very telling moment for them. Later on, we learn that it’s a test from Toranaga to see how far the Anjin is willing to go. Why do you think Toranaga pushes Blackthorne to that breaking point, and what does he see in him that leads him to decide Blackthorne has passed that test?

SANADA: Finally, he tries to commit to seppuku, which means he got a kind of rest period. Maybe he learned from our culture, or from Mariko’s death. It was so sad, but it was a meaningful death. Honorable death. Finally, our Anjin, Blackthorne, understands. Then, especially after the dream of the future — the old man lying down, looking at a samurai helmet. Is that a best death? Even if life is shorter, it’s meaningful and honorable. He chose the same way as Mariko. In that moment, okay, he gets it. Now, [Toranaga] can use him.

Hiroyuki Sanada Compares His Own ‘Shōgun’ Journey to Toranaga’s Ending

Toranaga’s conversation with Yabushige on the cliffs really spells out for us how the rest of this is going to go, but then there’s an interesting part where Yabushige asks him about being shōgun. Toranaga has been denying his desire for that up and down, but do you feel like Yabushige is right when he says it’s in Toranaga’s secret heart? Or is Toranaga just thinking that, since he’s won, shōgun will come along with that?

SANADA: Exactly like you said. In this version of the script, he didn’t want to be a shōgun. It felt similar to myself, you know? This time, I got the title of producer that I didn’t want before, but the producer title helped me to make the show more authentic, and everybody listened to me. I realized on set, “Oh, I needed a title to make a better show or movie.” Like Toranaga. [Laughs] He tried his best and then won the battle. Then he got the title of shōgun. It’s almost overlapping, me and Toranaga. That’s the meaning of the title for him, as well.

What was the final scene that you filmed for the show, and what were the emotions like for you on that last day?

SANADA: As a producer, I was on set all day, even if I had no shooting as an actor. So, my very last day, I had no shooting. I didn’t get a costume. I’m not sure what I experienced. [Laughs]

The last scene in the show is Blackthorne and Toranaga on the shore, having that shared moment. Do you have any memories from filming that?

SANADA: Even when we had a long distance, Anjin and Toranaga looking at each other, we felt some strong chemistry. This is the meaning of the 10 episodes. Even far away, I could feel and [Cosmo] could feel, he said, that chemistry, and the organic way we created it. Also, I pitched the idea for the ending of this season. I wanted to see the ocean and the sunshine. It looks like he’s watching the future of this country. It’s similar to the end of Episode 1. That was my image, and the DP loved it, and then the director agreed.